Guiding notes:

 

(Darrell)
We understand that you feel as we do about parents being an essential partnership to inclusion.

 

(Kylie)
I think one of the reasons we’ve built up the parent relationship is that many parents were scared to get their children tested in case it came up “Ed Support”. A couple of years ago, depending on a child’s score (e.g. I. Q.), the child pretty much “automatically” went off to an education support unit (segregated classroom) if that is what ‘the score’ came up with. We decided to say to parents, “We won’t test your child because we don’t want them to leave. We know you don’t want him to leave, so we just won’t test. We know that we can provide what is needed for all students.”

In terms of assistant time, we only see that as something else to add to the equation. It may be a bonus. If we have to, we will move things around so the child is supported.

I also think (parent partnership) is quite a practical move, not just a “philosophical position” to have parents involved. For one, this is THEIR child. Maybe it is their only child. Second, they know this child very well. We can learn from this - if we ask and listen.

I wish I’d had an introduction to (parent partnership) at University. We have found that even listening to those parents who may want to “lay blame”, at first, can become our allies if we listen and try to work it out with them.

 

(Val)
We know some children are going to struggle and that’s where we have got to really work hard with (parent partnership). If we find out we can get more help, we do. That’s where the relationship with the parents is really, really important.

 

(Kylie)
It’s the same with the parent-teacher relationship. If you just say, “Look, I’m the teacher, drop your kid off and go!” there is no relationship to build. If you work together, then you both bend your rules and ideas to fit together and better solutions are built.

 

(Darrell)
Is the way that we deliver the resources a part of the problem or part of the solution of partnership and inclusion?

As you heard us say in our joint workshop, we see the “new I.Q.” as an “Inclusion Quotient”. This is a leap into a new paradigm where we think all children can conceivably be included. If this is our goal, we must focus on assessing the setting, the milieu and determining its capacity to include. This contrasts sharply with the old paradigm where we looked only at the child to see if they would “fit” into an unchanged system.

The inclusion quotient says, “What’s the capacity of the system to include the child?”

We can’t do that by measuring the child. We can measure the child and find out some useful information for development and inclusion, but we can’t measure the child to find out what WE need to do to be inclusive.

Some of us have lots of experience, some of us have little experience, some of us need more resources, some of us need more knowledge, and some of us need models or brainstorming ideas. This is the idea of the inclusion quotient: - to find out what WE, the teachers and the system, need to build the capacity to include. This sort of capacity obviously doesn’t come in a ‘one-size fits all’, as we see promoted in the package of a teacher assistant. Otherwise we get resources that don’t match with what it is that we need. We may need some in-service and we get a teacher’s assistant who doesn’t know any more about the issues than I do.

 

(Kylie)
The scariest thing is that I’ve got a teacher’s assistant.

(Darrell)
How would you see it operating more ideally?

 

(Kylie)
I think it goes back to having to educate and convince our teachers that they don’t need to know everything. When they get a child (with a labelled impairment), whatever it may be, they need to work out: -

That’s where we are at now. I think it's working beautifully. We don’t automatically say we need an assistant. We are at the stage of saying, “OK, I am going to have so and so in my class. He only really needs help with organisational stuff in the morning so have we got something we can do for half an hour in the mornings to help him get organised?”

It is great if you can get some assistance time though. We can use it in the team rather than it being only ‘for that child’. Unfortunately, at the moment, a lot of the teachers are so scared of whatever that (labelled impairment) may be, they don’t know what they are supposed to do and so they just think they have to have an assistant. They hope the assistant can do everything.

 

(Val)
Too often we think “so that’s ‘your’ child - so you can do that and I’ll get on with my job of teaching the others”. Of course, this isn’t inclusion but it is a common thought that we have to address because ‘assistants’ are so equated with inclusion.

 

(Darrell)
In summary, you are suggesting that you need to know what you know. You need to know what you don’t know. You need to know that it is OK that you don’t know everything. You need to know that it is normal not to know everything and then you need a process to identify what is it that you don’t know and what it is that would bring that to you to build the capacity to do what it is that you want to do.

If I hear you correctly, what you are saying is that a formularised package that says child X has label Y = Z resource is an incoherent, sloppy and crude way of resourcing?

 

(Kylie)
Yes it is, because if you get a teacher who says, “OK, I am getting an ‘autistic student’ in my class and ‘he’ gets an assistant, then ‘he’ gets 0.7 assistant time, so 0.7 of the time he will be with the assistant and 0.3 of the time he’ll be with me”.

Whereas I see it this way: - “OK, I’ve got a student with the autism label. Where does he need help? Where do I need help? Maybe he can breeze through his language. Maybe he has no idea about maths and has great difficulty with comprehension, etc.”

Here is what I need: -

If I do maths and comprehension related work about 40% of the day, I could use 0.4 assistant time to help me manage the class and give him the help he needs. I may need some help in-servicewise to sort out the best way to help him in maths and with comprehension. I could use further assistant time to help me with a small group of readers so that I can devote some time directly to him each day and find ways that he can work unassisted, with peers etc.

 

(Paul)
Would you say that it is not mandatory to have teacher assistants to “do inclusion”?

The reason I ask is that, from discussions about funding with the Victorian Government, it seems they would like to move down a road where assistance matches need but it seems there is a fear to change the “teacher assistant formula”.

 

(Kylie)
We still have to submit all of the forms but what I am saying is that we try to think creatively and flexibly rather than apply a set formula.

 

(Darrell)
We hear this over and over in our workshops. It seems we may have incorrectly ‘taught’ parents to think that kids ‘need’ teacher assistants when all sorts of things – flexibility being your school's example – are needed.

We understand this as the ‘resource game’ but it seems so sad. Your trust building is much more adaptive.
In the WA review, we looked at the need to trust our teachers to measure their own capacity so that we could get to the point of building inclusive capacity. Self-reflection is central to our notion of the “New IQ”. We need to say, “Kylie, what is your view of your capacity to include? What is it that YOU need?” If we respected that and said, “Look, we haven’t got that much resource. I’d love to be able to give you all of what you are asking for but I’ve really only got this much. Can we work out and negotiate a way that you can get your needs met?” Would this build trust?

 

(Kylie)
It is critical. If you just said to me, “No, you can’t have it, bad luck”, then I’d be fighting you tooth and nail. But when you work together, in trust, we can find a solution.

 

(Val)
It is thinking ‘outside the square’.

 

(Darrell)
This is one of the critical attributes of education. Inclusion requires us to think outside the box.

 

(Paul)
You said your Principal sets the bar of judgement at, “Is this idea best for the kids?”
Can you tell us more about your leadership style here?

 

(Kylie)
We have a fabulous system here now – seven years down the track – we have flexibility in use of teacher assistants, even allowing experienced ones the flexibility of guiding new ones to our school.

When we first started the inclusive system, very few teachers had background training or had ever included a child with impairments in their classroom. Each year, we add more and more teachers to our list of having these experiences. We give everyone a chance to fill in a preference sheet for where they would like to teach next year — what age group and would they like the opportunity of having a student who has been labelled with “special needs” etc. When we started this voluntary involvement, there were more “No’s” and a few “Yes’s”. We now have only three who have said ‘no’ this year and it’s only because they are running another project, such as, “I am running the environmental club for the year and it wouldn’t be fair to the kids”. We have a staff of 50 teaching positions. It’s an incredible change.

Teachers have seen the benefits of having kids of all sorts in their classes and now parents are also seeing it. At the end of last year we had parents of children without labels come and say – “I know that (a labelled child) is going to be in such and such a class. Could my child possibly be in that room too?” A few years back it would have been more likely we would have heard, “It is not fair for my child to be in that class!” Parents are now requesting their children to be with the kids with ‘labels’ rather than in another room because they can see the benefits for their own children.

 

(Val)
The school started from scratch with Terry’s philosophy: -

We came into this school thinking “Oh my goodness is he for real?” He really believes that all children should be treated as individuals. We know they develop at different rates – so what stops after early childhood? Why shouldn’t we be individuals as we go along? He really wanted our school to be like the early childhood philosophy all the way through. That’s what it has become.

 

(Kylie)
We need to get more leaders that are positive, instead of leaders that are saying “not another bloody thing we have to do.” We need leaders who are positive because I have worked with the most negative of teachers that do not want to take on anything new, unlike that teacher who wanted to leave the workshop and go back to her class and try the inclusive strategies shown in the video of Julius (2)! It is so true. If you’ve got someone working at the top of your school like that, you will be positive.

 

(Darrell)
It is interesting how much this real history of your school reflects the research showing how critical leadership is to building capacity for inclusion.

 

(Paul)
You mention that it takes a teacher a while to adapt to your leadership style here -- how do the children with labels adapt?

 

(Val)
We have quite a few children with ‘autism’ who we are told should really be in one room. But we move around a lot here. We haven’t found it a problem. Those who are supposed to hate change love the days when we are moving – It’s ridiculous isn’t it?

 

(Kylie)
The special education specialists came and said, “Oh, goodness there is too much moving... too much for them... ”, but we don’t see that.

 

(Val)
One of our student’s best days is Wednesday and that’s the busiest moving day – she loves Wednesday.

 

(Darrell)
I have found very similar things. There are a lot of stereotypes around the labels. This is one reason that I am very skeptical about labels. The labels and the stereotypes don’t fit with who these kids are. If you go with what the label tells you, you will often miss seeing the child, whereas if you look at the student developmentally, individually and uniquely, you will see who THIS child is (which is your school leadership philosophy).

It is true there may be a particular quirk that came with the package that says ‘autism’ but the child doesn’t have many of the other things that come with the label called autism. Like you, we get more accurate information from the parent. I find parents are the richest place to get ‘up to speed’ real fast. I can hear an expert, see different assessment writers, see the assessment and all of the baggage that comes along with the child, then meet the child, and am confused because it doesn’t seem to match with this child. If I sit down with the parent and talk about what happened when they were 1, 2, 3 and 4 years old and get a developmental picture of how they grew up, what struggles they faced and interests they have, I get to see a more accurate picture. Do you find this too?

 

(Kylie)
That’s the go. Find out what you need to know rather than put a label on and think you need an assistant.

 

(Darrell)
How can that be taught or trained or built into our system? What would be the best way for teachers to receive this message?

 

(Kylie)
I think some of it needs to perhaps start at University when they are doing their degree. I never had anything about parents as partners.

 

(Val)
I did a “special needs” unit and we worked with a child and their parent. Once a week we went to the special school, mind you! But it was with the child and parent, so I learnt lots from that parent.

 

(Darrell)
What we are saying is that we need to build the capacity of the system to teach about parental relationship building on a more systematic and frequent basis. We need to teach teachers that it is OK to say, “I don’t know about this child – tell me about your child”.

This is a pathway to development as well as a path to a peaceful relationship. Should we be saying, “We need to put this in the curriculum for all the teachers”?

 

(Val)
I really think it’s a crucial part. You must build up relationships with parents.

 

(Kylie)
I think even if teachers can see it for their own advantage, cynical as this may be, if you build a positive relationship with your parents you are not going to have as many complaints at your classroom door every morning and afternoon. I believe we need to teach teachers to have empathy for their parents. The parents have one child on their mind, we have thirty. OK, we are very busy but this child is their life.

 

(Val)
I agree. How many of us say “Oh, it’s the parents!”, “Oh, you know these parents”? I think that’s a bit sad because we are all on the same side really -- the kid’s side. I think that teachers should understand that what Kylie is saying is that it is their child and it is very important that you know that child and you know where they are coming from. If you know their background and put yourself out a bit to get to know those parents, you can form a great partnership.

 

(Paul)
The message I got from you Kylie on the video (3) was that you took a certain amount of risk. You were open to learn from the parent. You admitted you didn’t know about autism and she said this was the most important thing you could have done.

 

(Kylie)
I would love to run a unit at University about how to build the valuable relationship with parents as a part of our information finding. I would also teach that if you are nice to them they will be nice to you. I would teach that if you can build up some empathy for parents and if you can then be honest and say you don’t know everything but you are prepared to try and find out, you will have the best ally a teacher could ever have.

Once you have built-up a relationship with parents you can then say, “OK, sure I will take that on board. I am happy to find out for you. I don’t know it all but please remember I have 27 others so please bear with me. Because you have already built up a positive relationship they are going to say, “No problem, we’ll catch up in a few weeks”, which is the sort of the reaction we get here. If you can treat people a little bit more gently then you will have a pleasant day.

 

(Val)
And if you do have problems you can work them through together.

 

(Kylie)
That goes back to the discussion on parent relationships. I have had the worst behaved kids in the school who come with huge sets of issues, but if I had a really good relationship with the parents they would die before they upset me or did something wrong. If I’ve got a good, sound relationship with parents from day one, they’re not going to come in and tear strips off me straight away because they respect me and we work it out together. They are going to come in and talk about a problem.

If you haven’t built up that relationship and something goes astray then look out! – because they’re going to be emotional, it’s their child, which is fair enough...

 

(Darrell)
The advantages of parental collaboration and relationship building are many fold. Again you confirm the research on this critical piece of inclusive education.

If you could run your University course, would it also include practical strategies such as: -

Of course not all parents may take up these sorts of things, but at least if we see that we can be proactive in encouraging parents to participate with us - you are making an offer – you are laying out the olive branch.

Are these the things that you think we could be teaching at a University level? Could they also be taught in-service?

 

(Kylie)
Yes... yes... definitely.

 

(Darrell)
How do you deal with transition from year to year? Do you have a process for that?

 

(Kylie)
We do a formal transition for the students. We seek requests for this and other opportunities and preferences from the teachers. We ask what strengths they have. What strengths do they see a particular child needing? Where do you see yourself working? And then we will put that together and work out a plan. Then we will probably have taken a photo of the child sitting next to his new teacher because next year he is going to be with them. We might say, “There is your new teacher for next year – pop in and say hello.” The next week we might spend half a day with the new teacher, doing work with her – things like that and slowly building up the relationship.

 

(Darrell)
I suppose what I was getting at is that at some schools, where it doesn’t work well, everybody is drawing straws about who is going to get this child next year and nobody makes that decision until day one of next year.

 

(Kylie)
So there is no transition.

 

(Darrell Wills)
So there is no transition – the transition is one of – ‘OK you’re it – you’re the new teacher of the school – you have the child and the child goes there – and the teacher is unprepared. I see that as setting everyone up to fail instead of setting everyone up to succeed, or at best leaving it to luck.

 

(Kylie)
This is where I think again that the positive leadership from the top makes the difference. I could go out there and say, “Right. We have 14 students with disabilities. Who is having them?” Or, I could go out and say “Which lucky one is going to work with Leanne and Blake?” You could do it two ways. I could have no one volunteering or I can make it professionally challenging and growth promoting and so good that I will have people disappointed because they didn’t get the chance. I prefer the latter.

 

(Darrell)
Obviously you have that personal and leadership way of dealing with it but you also have formal and informal processes and you have common sense in the sense of knowing that you have got to do it ahead of time – that you can’t wait until next year.

 

(Kylie)
I think the processes have probably come in after our early experiences, which were probably with the “OK, who is going to get ‘them’ thinking?”

 

(Darrell)
This was the experience in the first years?

 

(Kylie)
Yes... because you didn’t have everyone saying... “Please may I, please may I” … and so we did have to nominate someone.

 

(Val)
I was the first. Nobody came to me. The second year – transition, it didn’t happen. But now we do it differently.

 

(Darrell)
Kylie, you said you had a bad experience in the transition from primary to high school. Can you share this?

 

(Kylie)
Yes it’s very difficult. I think they (the high school) are scared. They are just scared of the label of the student they are getting. They are perhaps reluctant to take on that challenge and so they see it as an “Oh no! Aren’t ‘they’ better off in education support where there are special programs up and running?” It is purely just not realising that there is a positive side to it.

 

(Darrell Wills)
So it is very disappointing for you, as a school, that you have included the child to this level and feel they could continue this path?

 

(Kylie)
All of our children (with disability labels) and their parents are all very passionate about inclusion. Their children deserve an education. They’ve been told they can choose where their children get that education and then they meet the high school people that say... “Oh no you’re not ... you are better off over there”. They are apprehensive. Inclusion is tricky and everyone has so much on their plate workwise that it probably makes sense to some people to send this child to a special program.

 

(Darrell Wills)
So do you have strategy for that?

 

(Kylie)
I walked into this job about 5 or 6 weeks previous to all this happening, so no, I didn’t have a strategy. This year we are better off, because we have this “building inclusive schools” push from the department... so I know that I can work with high schools. I am going to be able to manage this next transition. I am going to get in there and prove to them that it is a positive thing before it turns into a disappointment.

 

(Darrell Wills)
You are starting now in a way which is almost playing an advocacy role.

 

(Kylie)
Yes. We took this parent to the different high schools around the place last term. We went to each different high school with the Mum. I spoke to Mum and said, “You need to start thinking about the high school because we want to start transition in term 4 which means we need to have it all sorted by term 3.”
I said to Mum, “Go and check the schools out. I am happy to come with you if you like.” She said, “No, no. I will be fine.” – And then she rang back about a week later and said ‘Could you come with me?’
I said I would, but I let her know straight up that I’d point things out to her, but I wouldn’t make her decision for her – “You decide where you want your son to go.” So we went along. Val did a couple of visits and I did one and she came away having made a decision from the positives and negatives.

 

(Darrell)
From your professional opinion, was the parent choice as you would have...?

 

(Kylie)
Yes. She is a very, very educated woman. She knows way more than I ever will know about autism. She’s incredible. I just want to say to this Principal, “You just don’t know what you are in for if you don’t …. Get on the wrong side of her and you’ll lose. Guaranteed!”
This “Building Inclusive Schools” is a really good movement.

 

(Darrell)
Whilst you are able to build inclusion in your school, transition beyond the borders of your school is still not universal.

 

(Kylie)
It’s a learning curve. I am glad we were asked to go and do these talks to the Principals because a lot of them are the same as the teachers – they don’t know what to do. They don’t know – “how do I make a teacher take a child with this label?” – It’s easier to say “go down the road to that Ed Support Centre”.

 

(Paul)
You have so much to share now through your experience that you provide mentoring roles to other teachers. What are you finding in terms of what they want to know? What do they most want to know?

 

(Kylie)
If you really get down to tin tacks, they want to know if it is really true. Is it really as positive as we say?

 

(Val)
Yes – and then we say, come and have a look.

 

(Kylie)
And they come and when they leave, they say – “I can’t believe it!” It’s just one of those positive experiences so that they know that it’s true, that it is good. We all laugh a lot here (when we’re not pulling our hair out) and they go away enthusiastic.

 

(Darrell)
All over the country, in fact all over the world, when we get face to face with classroom teachers doing inclusion or walking towards that pathway, we see good people like you, giving us all hope and practicing the ‘passion for knowledge’.
Thank you for sharing your passion for knowledge with us.

 

Footnotes

1. The actual school’s name has been removed from the conversation as a safeguard to protect the confi-dentiality of students, teachers, and others referred to in the discussion.

   Go to this footnote in the article
2. This is a reference to a teacher that was so taken by the lessons of inclusion from the video prepared by Ballajura Community College that she left an inclusion workshop impatient to try out what she had just seen. See Escaping the Continuum in this edition.

   Go to this footnote in the article
3. You can view part of this video by clicking here

   Go to this footnote in the article

Reference:  Evans, V; Smith, K. (2004). Building Inclusive Capacity at School. A Practical Conversation with Educators, Kylie Smith and Val Evans. Interaction v.17 #2  p.13-20.
Reprinted with permission from the National Council on Intellectual Disability.

 

 

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