From familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Thu Oct 8 17:34:01 2009 From: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com (Family Voices) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:34:01 +1000 Subject: FV: IDEA legislation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Gina Well sorry but this person's brilliance and brains seems to have failed me on this occasion. IDEA legislation I need more information. How are things going for MAC re wheelchair access? I am off to the school with a friend today to get a formal apology from the acting principal about a skit he performed in the main office about her daughter. What the f---wit didn't realize was the child he was joking over sister was in sick bay. Anyway I think I have cooled down enough not to rip his head off and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. I am going with a job description of principals with specific high lighted areas to ask where he thinks his behavior fits in. I know we cannot expect the wheel to be reinvented but gosh I get frustrated when people just don't seem to get it at all. This person is a young man early 20's. Oh well gang how are you all. Meg what is happening in your new world? Take care and keep smiling to all. Jane Warner/Hudson 07 46714737 -----Original Message----- From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:21 PM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: FV: IDEA legislation Hi All I know this is really lazy of me... what legislation in Australia most similar/relevant - if any - to the IDEA legislation in the USA? Thanks guys - sorry to just "use" you for your brains and brilliance and not your looks on this occasion. Cheers Gina E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13380 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13440 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ From familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Thu Oct 8 18:10:45 2009 From: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com (Family Voices) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 12:10:45 +1100 Subject: FV: IDEA legislation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jane ugh, that sounds terrible. How can they expect to 'lead the way' if they don't get the very basic issues of de-valuing others. I find this whole Hey Hey it's Saturday furore very interesting to see that it seems as a nation we are split 50:50 as to whether the black face skit is offensive or not. People really don't get the whole issue of racism and it seems many Aussies just don't get the issue of how oppressed some people have been through history. I do wonder if we can't get people to understand racisim issue how we will ever get them to understand disability issues. I also find this whole electronic/global world fascinating. Once upon a time tv was instant and fleeting. If it was offensive it was gone in a flash, never to surface again. Papers were the big worry because they were permanent - they hung around forever . The internet now makes everything hang around - so people are subject to so much more scrutiny. That sketch was on youtube before the show ended. It doesn't hurt, it gets people talking and maybe, just maybe people like your teacher might stop and think (eventually). Good Luck Re the IDEA legislation this is off the USA DEd site The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) is a law ensuring services to children with disabilities throughout the nation. IDEA governs how states and public agencies provide early intervention, special education and related services to more than 6.5 million eligible infants, toddlers, children and youth with disabilities. Infants and toddlers with disabilities (birth-2) and their families receive early intervention services under IDEA Part C. Children and youth (ages 3-21) receive special education and related services under IDEA Part B. I just wasn't sure what we had over here and was asked the question the other day from a parent and didn't know the answer. Cheers Gina On 09/10/2009, at 11:34 AM, Family Voices wrote: > Hi Gina > > Well sorry but this person's brilliance and brains seems to have > failed me > on this occasion. IDEA legislation I need more information. > > How are things going for MAC re wheelchair access? > > I am off to the school with a friend today to get a formal apology > from the > acting principal about a skit he performed in the main office about > her > daughter. What the f---wit didn't realize was the child he was > joking over > sister was in sick bay. > > Anyway I think I have cooled down enough not to rip his head off > and shove > it where the sun doesn't shine. I am going with a job description of > principals with specific high lighted areas to ask where he thinks his > behavior fits in. > > I know we cannot expect the wheel to be reinvented but gosh I get > frustrated > when people just don't seem to get it at all. This person is a > young man > early 20's. > > Oh well gang how are you all. > > Meg what is happening in your new world? > > Take care and keep smiling to all. > > > Jane Warner/Hudson > > 07 46714737 > > -----Original Message----- > From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com > [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of > Family > Voices > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:21 PM > To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com > Subject: FV: IDEA legislation > > Hi All > > I know this is really lazy of me... what legislation in Australia > most similar/relevant - if any - to the IDEA legislation in the USA? > > Thanks guys - sorry to just "use" you for your brains and brilliance > and not your looks on this occasion. > > Cheers > Gina > > > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) > Database version: 5.13380 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) > Database version: 5.13440 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Fri Oct 9 01:33:49 2009 From: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com (Family Voices) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 18:33:49 +1000 Subject: FV: IDEA legislation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <323E8637D94C4E4AA726CF5E8DAC73D6@dell91> HI Gina I so agree with you re the 50 50. It is almost against the aussie culture to stand up for beliefs that challenge the okka image if you know what I mean. Was a interesting meeting and we did our best to make sure the actions didn't slep through and used the incident to it full potential. I actually raised the Hey Hey stuff. So out of peoples mistakes we can learn YEH and that's history. Talks soon Jane Warner/Hudson 07 46714737 _____ From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 11:11 AM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: Re: FV: IDEA legislation Hi Jane ugh, that sounds terrible. How can they expect to 'lead the way' if they don't get the very basic issues of de-valuing others. I find this whole Hey Hey it's Saturday furore very interesting to see that it seems as a nation we are split 50:50 as to whether the black face skit is offensive or not. People really don't get the whole issue of racism and it seems many Aussies just don't get the issue of how oppressed some people have been through history. I do wonder if we can't get people to understand racisim issue how we will ever get them to understand disability issues. I also find this whole electronic/global world fascinating. Once upon a time tv was instant and fleeting. If it was offensive it was gone in a flash, never to surface again. Papers were the big worry because they were permanent - they hung around forever . The internet now makes everything hang around - so people are subject to so much more scrutiny. That sketch was on youtube before the show ended. It doesn't hurt, it gets people talking and maybe, just maybe people like your teacher might stop and think (eventually). Good Luck Re the IDEA legislation this is off the USA DEd site The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) is a law ensuring services to children with disabilities throughout the nation. IDEA governs how states and public agencies provide early intervention, special education and related services to more than 6.5 million eligible infants, toddlers, children and youth with disabilities. Infants and toddlers with disabilities (birth-2) and their families receive early intervention services under IDEA Part C. Children and youth (ages 3-21) receive special education and related services under IDEA Part B. I just wasn't sure what we had over here and was asked the question the other day from a parent and didn't know the answer. Cheers Gina On 09/10/2009, at 11:34 AM, Family Voices wrote: Hi Gina Well sorry but this person's brilliance and brains seems to have failed me on this occasion. IDEA legislation I need more information. How are things going for MAC re wheelchair access? I am off to the school with a friend today to get a formal apology from the acting principal about a skit he performed in the main office about her daughter. What the f---wit didn't realize was the child he was joking over sister was in sick bay. Anyway I think I have cooled down enough not to rip his head off and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. I am going with a job description of principals with specific high lighted areas to ask where he thinks his behavior fits in. I know we cannot expect the wheel to be reinvented but gosh I get frustrated when people just don't seem to get it at all. This person is a young man early 20's. Oh well gang how are you all. Meg what is happening in your new world? Take care and keep smiling to all. Jane Warner/Hudson 07 46714737 -----Original Message----- From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:21 PM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: FV: IDEA legislation Hi All I know this is really lazy of me... what legislation in Australia most similar/relevant - if any - to the IDEA legislation in the USA? Thanks guys - sorry to just "use" you for your brains and brilliance and not your looks on this occasion. Cheers Gina E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13380 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13440 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13440 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13450 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Fri Oct 9 01:47:16 2009 From: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com (Family Voices) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:47:16 +1100 Subject: FV: IDEA legislation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Firstly, Gina, I'm afraid that my research has leaded me to think that there is no legislation anything like IDEA. We have ADA and DDA both state and federal however nothing else as far as I am aware that enshrines PWD's rights or entitlements in any way. When Jos was very young (5) we were thinking of using family law in relation to the culture of our family to refuse IQ testing when education were insistent on this to provide support. (a bit like the refusal of certain medical procedures on the basis of religious belief) fortunately they backed down and we didn't need to follow this action. Please enlighten me if you have found anything else. As for the family.....House purchased at 36 Towry Cres Vincentia NSW. Do a Google and you may get some pictures. A big surprise for us was the fabulous view of Jervis Bay, what a lucky find. Needs lots of work but will come up a treat. Todd's mum will be living with us and the house has a separate area for her. Our floor is on street level which is fully accessible (once we do up the bathroom) so all our friends can come and visit. Girls are enrolled at the local high school to start next year. That is a whole other story that I'll post at another time. Not good, not bad just problematic. Todd has been working away from the family for 4 months now only 2 too go...cant wait, however he is very happy with his new work. Being apart has been difficult in many ways and we are all really looking forward to being together again. The removalist truck arrives on 16.12.09 which is also the last day of school and Joscelyn's 18th birthday. We are having a come one come all farewell/18th at a local club that night which will no doubt result in a massive hangover, either alcohol or emotion induced the next day. Still a lot of things in limbo but coming together week by week. I'll only be 1/2 an hour from Gina when we move which will be neat. Talk soon, Megs -----Original Message----- From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Friday, 9 October 2009 11:34 AM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: Re: FV: IDEA legislation Hi Gina Well sorry but this person's brilliance and brains seems to have failed me on this occasion. IDEA legislation I need more information. How are things going for MAC re wheelchair access? I am off to the school with a friend today to get a formal apology from the acting principal about a skit he performed in the main office about her daughter. What the f---wit didn't realize was the child he was joking over sister was in sick bay. Anyway I think I have cooled down enough not to rip his head off and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. I am going with a job description of principals with specific high lighted areas to ask where he thinks his behavior fits in. I know we cannot expect the wheel to be reinvented but gosh I get frustrated when people just don't seem to get it at all. This person is a young man early 20's. Oh well gang how are you all. Meg what is happening in your new world? Take care and keep smiling to all. Jane Warner/Hudson 07 46714737 -----Original Message----- From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:21 PM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: FV: IDEA legislation Hi All I know this is really lazy of me... what legislation in Australia most similar/relevant - if any - to the IDEA legislation in the USA? Thanks guys - sorry to just "use" you for your brains and brilliance and not your looks on this occasion. Cheers Gina E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13380 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13440 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ From familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Fri Oct 9 03:29:19 2009 From: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com (Family Voices) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 18:29:19 +0800 Subject: FV: IDEA legislation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3682BA7AA40240B1A3D36BE1127EF1D4@Main> Thank God for family voices, I thought I was the only person in Australia to think that skit was racist.........the link with disability is a true one......trouble is people don't know history.....especially the from the losers point of view.....history being usually written by the winners Caroline McCallum PLEDG Esperance ----- Original Message ----- From: "Family Voices" To: Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 4:47 PM Subject: Re: FV: IDEA legislation > > Firstly, > Gina, I'm afraid that my research has leaded me to think that there is no > legislation anything like IDEA. We have ADA and DDA both state and federal > however nothing else as far as I am aware that enshrines PWD's rights or > entitlements in any way. When Jos was very young (5) we were thinking of > using family law in relation to the culture of our family to refuse IQ > testing when education were insistent on this to provide support. (a bit > like the refusal of certain medical procedures on the basis of religious > belief) fortunately they backed down and we didn't need to follow this > action. Please enlighten me if you have found anything else. > > As for the family.....House purchased at 36 Towry Cres Vincentia NSW. Do > a > Google and you may get some pictures. A big surprise for us was the > fabulous view of Jervis Bay, what a lucky find. Needs lots of work but > will > come up a treat. Todd's mum will be living with us and the house has a > separate area for her. Our floor is on street level which is fully > accessible (once we do up the bathroom) so all our friends can come and > visit. Girls are enrolled at the local high school to start next year. > That is a whole other story that I'll post at another time. Not good, not > bad just problematic. > > Todd has been working away from the family for 4 months now only 2 too > go...cant wait, however he is very happy with his new work. Being apart > has > been difficult in many ways and we are all really looking forward to being > together again. The removalist truck arrives on 16.12.09 which is also > the > last day of school and Joscelyn's 18th birthday. We are having a come one > come all farewell/18th at a local club that night which will no doubt > result > in a massive hangover, either alcohol or emotion induced the next day. > > Still a lot of things in limbo but coming together week by week. I'll only > be 1/2 an hour from Gina when we move which will be neat. > > Talk soon, Megs > > > -----Original Message----- > From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com > [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family > Voices > Sent: Friday, 9 October 2009 11:34 AM > To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com > Subject: Re: FV: IDEA legislation > > Hi Gina > > Well sorry but this person's brilliance and brains seems to have failed me > on this occasion. IDEA legislation I need more information. > > How are things going for MAC re wheelchair access? > > I am off to the school with a friend today to get a formal apology from > the > acting principal about a skit he performed in the main office about her > daughter. What the f---wit didn't realize was the child he was joking > over > sister was in sick bay. > > Anyway I think I have cooled down enough not to rip his head off and shove > it where the sun doesn't shine. I am going with a job description of > principals with specific high lighted areas to ask where he thinks his > behavior fits in. > > I know we cannot expect the wheel to be reinvented but gosh I get > frustrated > when people just don't seem to get it at all. This person is a young man > early 20's. > > Oh well gang how are you all. > > Meg what is happening in your new world? > > Take care and keep smiling to all. > > > Jane Warner/Hudson > > 07 46714737 > > -----Original Message----- > From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com > [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family > Voices > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:21 PM > To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com > Subject: FV: IDEA legislation > > Hi All > > I know this is really lazy of me... what legislation in Australia > most similar/relevant - if any - to the IDEA legislation in the USA? > > Thanks guys - sorry to just "use" you for your brains and brilliance > and not your looks on this occasion. > > Cheers > Gina > > > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) > Database version: 5.13380 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) > Database version: 5.13440 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > > > From familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Fri Oct 9 06:07:50 2009 From: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com (Family Voices) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 00:07:50 +1100 Subject: FV: IDEA legislation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Meg No I haven't found out much more. I was trying to get my head around it too to see if is useful legislation for the relevant parties making policy on ed at the moment to take into consideration. Will keep looking. Been wondering how you were going with house hunting etc. Wow, busy times ahead for your family. Glad to hear you are 2/3 the way through the stint with Todd away. Gina On 09/10/2009, at 7:47 PM, Family Voices wrote: > > Firstly, > Gina, I'm afraid that my research has leaded me to think that there > is no > legislation anything like IDEA. We have ADA and DDA both state and > federal > however nothing else as far as I am aware that enshrines PWD's > rights or > entitlements in any way. When Jos was very young (5) we were > thinking of > using family law in relation to the culture of our family to refuse IQ > testing when education were insistent on this to provide support. > (a bit > like the refusal of certain medical procedures on the basis of > religious > belief) fortunately they backed down and we didn't need to follow this > action. Please enlighten me if you have found anything else. > > As for the family.....House purchased at 36 Towry Cres Vincentia > NSW. Do a > Google and you may get some pictures. A big surprise for us was the > fabulous view of Jervis Bay, what a lucky find. Needs lots of work > but will > come up a treat. Todd's mum will be living with us and the house > has a > separate area for her. Our floor is on street level which is fully > accessible (once we do up the bathroom) so all our friends can come > and > visit. Girls are enrolled at the local high school to start next > year. > That is a whole other story that I'll post at another time. Not > good, not > bad just problematic. > > Todd has been working away from the family for 4 months now only 2 too > go...cant wait, however he is very happy with his new work. Being > apart has > been difficult in many ways and we are all really looking forward > to being > together again. The removalist truck arrives on 16.12.09 which is > also the > last day of school and Joscelyn's 18th birthday. We are having a > come one > come all farewell/18th at a local club that night which will no > doubt result > in a massive hangover, either alcohol or emotion induced the next day. > > Still a lot of things in limbo but coming together week by week. > I'll only > be 1/2 an hour from Gina when we move which will be neat. > > Talk soon, Megs > > > -----Original Message----- > From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com > [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of > Family > Voices > Sent: Friday, 9 October 2009 11:34 AM > To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com > Subject: Re: FV: IDEA legislation > > Hi Gina > > Well sorry but this person's brilliance and brains seems to have > failed me > on this occasion. IDEA legislation I need more information. > > How are things going for MAC re wheelchair access? > > I am off to the school with a friend today to get a formal apology > from the > acting principal about a skit he performed in the main office about > her > daughter. What the f---wit didn't realize was the child he was > joking over > sister was in sick bay. > > Anyway I think I have cooled down enough not to rip his head off > and shove > it where the sun doesn't shine. I am going with a job description of > principals with specific high lighted areas to ask where he thinks his > behavior fits in. > > I know we cannot expect the wheel to be reinvented but gosh I get > frustrated > when people just don't seem to get it at all. This person is a > young man > early 20's. > > Oh well gang how are you all. > > Meg what is happening in your new world? > > Take care and keep smiling to all. > > > Jane Warner/Hudson > > 07 46714737 > > -----Original Message----- > From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com > [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of > Family > Voices > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:21 PM > To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com > Subject: FV: IDEA legislation > > Hi All > > I know this is really lazy of me... what legislation in Australia > most similar/relevant - if any - to the IDEA legislation in the USA? > > Thanks guys - sorry to just "use" you for your brains and brilliance > and not your looks on this occasion. > > Cheers > Gina > > > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) > Database version: 5.13380 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) > Database version: 5.13440 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > > From familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Tue Oct 13 20:54:17 2009 From: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com (Family Voices) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:54:17 +0800 Subject: FV: IDEA legislation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003701ca4c82$0101e000$0305a000$@com> Hi Gina, Have been away and couldn't respond. Good question as our legislation is fairly poorly understood around "rights". . IDEA is latest in a number of successive legislations starting back in 1973 when the landmark bill was passed in Washington (State) HB 90, daring to suggest "least restrict environment" was the principle upon which this American State would provide education (and later) other services. In 74 this became national law, PL94-142, landmark legislation for "integration". This, like other American laws, are rights based, meaning any/all citizens can "sue"/challenge the provision if they feel unfairly treated. . DSA is our "latest" legislation and modeled on 94-142 but over a decade later (1986). In its day it was "cutting edge". It too adopted the "integration" concept that was already becoming outdated by the mid-80's but it surely was a huge shift from the "Handicapped Persons Assistance Act" that preceded it! This was the act that stood in place previously and was structured heavily and almost exclusively around segregation and thus the name of the DSA was "A New Direction" (Quite an understatement!) . As others have mentioned, we have had complimentary legislation such as DDA, which is about "not discriminating". (Rather than promoting something, it tries to stop doing something bad). . The major problem (as we see it) is that whilst we believe we have "rights" we don't. We have privileges granted by legislation and allocated by Ministerial discretion. We perceive these as "rights" until we as an individual challenges a decision. We then discover that because NO one has personal, human rights under Westminster Law, we must challenge (ultimately) the right of the Minister who has (as advised by his Dept) used her/his discretion in deciding whatever it is that has been decided. . In reality, the politics of the matter - whatever it may be- may mean that the Minister rarely uses discretionary power to say, exclude a child from education, BUT they will-whenever and whenever they have been advised by Department and feel they can politically wear the heat. . We learned this the hard way. Starting about 1980 we began challenging the child's right to inclusive education. (The first Australian case to go to beyond State challenge arose here in rural WA.) This case saw us bring experts from US and interstate to challenge the science and educational validity of the Minister's decision to exclude a young boy.) Bob and I have testified on inclusion's behalf in a series of "test cases" from Queensland to NSW and over the years and although the ability to politically exclude has lessened (public sentiment shifted gradually in our favour) legislatively we have no more actual, individual human rights. . In fact NO child has a "right" to an education at all. You, as a parent are required to send your child to school but there is no legal requirement for the child to be educated, nor even accepted. And, given the department should exclude a child, the parent is "not off the hook". You are still required to provide an "appropriate education". Sorry. I got carried away with a history lesson on "rights" but maybe good for younger parents to know part of what the early strugglers faced and what is currently only in place because "the times" - and not necessarily backed by any legislative strength. Kindest thoughts. Darrell -----Original Message----- From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Thursday, 1 October 2009 11:21 AM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: FV: IDEA legislation Hi All I know this is really lazy of me... what legislation in Australia most similar/relevant - if any - to the IDEA legislation in the USA? Thanks guys - sorry to just "use" you for your brains and brilliance and not your looks on this occasion. Cheers Gina __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Tue Oct 13 23:30:21 2009 From: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com (Family Voices) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:30:21 +1100 Subject: FV: IDEA legislation In-Reply-To: <003701ca4c82$0101e000$0305a000$@com> Message-ID: <85fhun$6lvgbc@smtp06.syd.iprimus.net.au> Darrell Thank you so much for that. That all makes perfect sense and you are right. it is important for us to understand the history around all this. I know we probably end up knowing more than those we are often dealing with in relation to this stuff but that is a good thing and means we don't get into situations we don't want to be. We have reasonably good news on the wheelchair attendant front. DET legal agree provided appropriate risk assessments are undertaken, we sign off on the fact we won't take legal action against accidents and parents of attendants are aware their kids are taking on this role then we will be right. The best way is to create the licensing program and have the kids involved in its development. The school is excited at the learning opportunities (which you alluded to). One of the parents at school who is blind is keen to also include an element where the kids can learn to be 'sight guides' too. Quite a number of parents have indicated they are keen to be involved in the organizing etc of the program. All in all a good outcome - just need to get the ball rolling on ensuring it is in place by the end of term. Mac & I are down in Melbourne this week so Mac can attend appointments every day with Rosemary Crossley. Some great insights into communication options for him - she has been working him hard (2-3 hours every day) but the gains are huge - very exciting. We met Maureen for coffee yesterday morning at one of her fave coffee shops. It was fantastic to catch up in person. Cheers Gina _____ From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Wednesday, 14 October 2009 2:54 PM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: Re: FV: IDEA legislation Hi Gina, Have been away and couldn't respond. Good question as our legislation is fairly poorly understood around "rights". * IDEA is latest in a number of successive legislations starting back in 1973 when the landmark bill was passed in Washington (State) HB 90, daring to suggest "least restrict environment" was the principle upon which this American State would provide education (and later) other services. In 74 this became national law, PL94-142, landmark legislation for "integration". This, like other American laws, are rights based, meaning any/all citizens can "sue"/challenge the provision if they feel unfairly treated. * DSA is our "latest" legislation and modeled on 94-142 but over a decade later (1986). In its day it was "cutting edge". It too adopted the "integration" concept that was already becoming outdated by the mid-80's but it surely was a huge shift from the "Handicapped Persons Assistance Act" that preceded it! This was the act that stood in place previously and was structured heavily and almost exclusively around segregation and thus the name of the DSA was "A New Direction" (Quite an understatement!) * As others have mentioned, we have had complimentary legislation such as DDA, which is about "not discriminating". (Rather than promoting something, it tries to stop doing something bad). * The major problem (as we see it) is that whilst we believe we have "rights" we don't. We have privileges granted by legislation and allocated by Ministerial discretion. We perceive these as "rights" until we as an individual challenges a decision. We then discover that because NO one has personal, human rights under Westminster Law, we must challenge (ultimately) the right of the Minister who has (as advised by his Dept) used her/his discretion in deciding whatever it is that has been decided. * In reality, the politics of the matter - whatever it may be- may mean that the Minister rarely uses discretionary power to say, exclude a child from education, BUT they will-whenever and whenever they have been advised by Department and feel they can politically wear the heat. * We learned this the hard way. Starting about 1980 we began challenging the child's right to inclusive education. (The first Australian case to go to beyond State challenge arose here in rural WA.) This case saw us bring experts from US and interstate to challenge the science and educational validity of the Minister's decision to exclude a young boy.) Bob and I have testified on inclusion's behalf in a series of "test cases" from Queensland to NSW and over the years and although the ability to politically exclude has lessened (public sentiment shifted gradually in our favour) legislatively we have no more actual, individual human rights. * In fact NO child has a "right" to an education at all. You, as a parent are required to send your child to school but there is no legal requirement for the child to be educated, nor even accepted. And, given the department should exclude a child, the parent is "not off the hook". You are still required to provide an "appropriate education". Sorry. I got carried away with a history lesson on "rights" but maybe good for younger parents to know part of what the early strugglers faced and what is currently only in place because "the times" - and not necessarily backed by any legislative strength. Kindest thoughts. Darrell -----Original Message----- From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Thursday, 1 October 2009 11:21 AM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: FV: IDEA legislation Hi All I know this is really lazy of me... what legislation in Australia most similar/relevant - if any - to the IDEA legislation in the USA? Thanks guys - sorry to just "use" you for your brains and brilliance and not your looks on this occasion. Cheers Gina __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 3308 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Wed Oct 14 14:38:36 2009 From: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com (Family Voices) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 08:38:36 +1100 Subject: FV: IDEA legislation In-Reply-To: <003701ca4c82$0101e000$0305a000$@com> References: <003701ca4c82$0101e000$0305a000$@com> Message-ID: Hi there, This topic raises the difference between a 'rights based' framework and a 'best interest' framework. As Darrell as highlighted below, a legislative 'right's approach is fraught with complexity and flaws and has never really delivered on its promise. This is why is may well be better to start from a 'best interest' framework where rights are subordinate to best interest. There are many circumstances, especially for people with intellectual disability, where defending someone's rights is in their best interest, but sometimes it's not. For example: it is someone's right to smoke, but it is not in their best interest. It is a person right to wear pyjamas all day, but it would not be in their best interest...etc. etc. you get the drift. Best interest provides the 'moral' imperative - doing the right thing for the right reasons. People generally don't do the right thing because the law says they have to, but because they themselves see it as the right thing to do. Rights provide the 'legal' imperative. However, legislation only has teeth after the fact...after something bad has already happened. We need to consider both 'best interest' and 'rights' at any given time. Much harder though to get people in authority to consider best interest as part of the mix, when so much is driven by rights. Also, many would poo poo best interest as it is linked to values, beliefs, assumptions about people etc. Harder to explain and enforce, but better for people in the long run. Not exactly the answer to your question Gina, but thought it worth a mention. Catherine From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Wednesday, 14 October 2009 2:54 PM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: Re: FV: IDEA legislation Hi Gina, Have been away and couldn't respond. Good question as our legislation is fairly poorly understood around "rights". * IDEA is latest in a number of successive legislations starting back in 1973 when the landmark bill was passed in Washington (State) HB 90, daring to suggest "least restrict environment" was the principle upon which this American State would provide education (and later) other services. In 74 this became national law, PL94-142, landmark legislation for "integration". This, like other American laws, are rights based, meaning any/all citizens can "sue"/challenge the provision if they feel unfairly treated. * DSA is our "latest" legislation and modeled on 94-142 but over a decade later (1986). In its day it was "cutting edge". It too adopted the "integration" concept that was already becoming outdated by the mid-80's but it surely was a huge shift from the "Handicapped Persons Assistance Act" that preceded it! This was the act that stood in place previously and was structured heavily and almost exclusively around segregation and thus the name of the DSA was "A New Direction" (Quite an understatement!) * As others have mentioned, we have had complimentary legislation such as DDA, which is about "not discriminating". (Rather than promoting something, it tries to stop doing something bad). * The major problem (as we see it) is that whilst we believe we have "rights" we don't. We have privileges granted by legislation and allocated by Ministerial discretion. We perceive these as "rights" until we as an individual challenges a decision. We then discover that because NO one has personal, human rights under Westminster Law, we must challenge (ultimately) the right of the Minister who has (as advised by his Dept) used her/his discretion in deciding whatever it is that has been decided. * In reality, the politics of the matter - whatever it may be- may mean that the Minister rarely uses discretionary power to say, exclude a child from education, BUT they will-whenever and whenever they have been advised by Department and feel they can politically wear the heat. * We learned this the hard way. Starting about 1980 we began challenging the child's right to inclusive education. (The first Australian case to go to beyond State challenge arose here in rural WA.) This case saw us bring experts from US and interstate to challenge the science and educational validity of the Minister's decision to exclude a young boy.) Bob and I have testified on inclusion's behalf in a series of "test cases" from Queensland to NSW and over the years and although the ability to politically exclude has lessened (public sentiment shifted gradually in our favour) legislatively we have no more actual, individual human rights. * In fact NO child has a "right" to an education at all. You, as a parent are required to send your child to school but there is no legal requirement for the child to be educated, nor even accepted. And, given the department should exclude a child, the parent is "not off the hook". You are still required to provide an "appropriate education". Sorry. I got carried away with a history lesson on "rights" but maybe good for younger parents to know part of what the early strugglers faced and what is currently only in place because "the times" - and not necessarily backed by any legislative strength. Kindest thoughts. Darrell -----Original Message----- From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Thursday, 1 October 2009 11:21 AM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: FV: IDEA legislation Hi All I know this is really lazy of me... what legislation in Australia most similar/relevant - if any - to the IDEA legislation in the USA? Thanks guys - sorry to just "use" you for your brains and brilliance and not your looks on this occasion. Cheers Gina __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Wed Oct 14 16:10:36 2009 From: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com (Family Voices) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:10:36 +0800 Subject: FV: IDEA legislation In-Reply-To: References: <003701ca4c82$0101e000$0305a000$@com> Message-ID: <000001ca4d23$8a138690$9e3a93b0$@com> Hi Catherine, The historical discussion is suggestive that legislative, systemic based "political-legal" advocacy, needs to be acutely aware of context -that there are significant difference across jurisdictions that most of us are only vaguely aware of. Too many of us watch TV and think we have individual rights that we actually don't have. When we or are loved ones are "wronged" and we then pursue "righting this wrong" through what we believe to be our society's structures, we find them quite different to what we had conjured up in our minds to be. Just a hope that that the next generation would learn from the mistakes of our past in pursuing these "dead ends". You are correct that legislation typically follows or responds to and typically does not lead social change -albeit a case can be made that our DSA legislation did lead social changes in '86 possibly such that it was too far in front of what social policy and in particular-social administrators and gatekeepers were willing to accept such that it became highly perverted by those administering it. I take "integration" as one exemplar. The DSA "decreed" that from 1986 ALL funded service to ALL Australians must move to "integration". 23 years later the bulk of services funded under this legislation do not even "integrate"-let alone include labeled people as a core operational approach. The segway into the discussion of a framework of an approach is an important, closely allied, discussion topic that moves the discussion from National level of collective rights policy pursuits to a framework around the pursuits for the individual. Kindest thoughts. Darrell From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Thursday, 15 October 2009 5:39 AM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: Re: FV: IDEA legislation Hi there, This topic raises the difference between a 'rights based' framework and a 'best interest' framework. As Darrell as highlighted below, a legislative 'right's approach is fraught with complexity and flaws and has never really delivered on its promise. This is why is may well be better to start from a 'best interest' framework where rights are subordinate to best interest. There are many circumstances, especially for people with intellectual disability, where defending someone's rights is in their best interest, but sometimes it's not. For example: it is someone's right to smoke, but it is not in their best interest. It is a person right to wear pyjamas all day, but it would not be in their best interest...etc. etc. you get the drift. Best interest provides the 'moral' imperative - doing the right thing for the right reasons. People generally don't do the right thing because the law says they have to, but because they themselves see it as the right thing to do. Rights provide the 'legal' imperative. However, legislation only has teeth after the fact...after something bad has already happened. We need to consider both 'best interest' and 'rights' at any given time. Much harder though to get people in authority to consider best interest as part of the mix, when so much is driven by rights. Also, many would poo poo best interest as it is linked to values, beliefs, assumptions about people etc. Harder to explain and enforce, but better for people in the long run. Not exactly the answer to your question Gina, but thought it worth a mention. Catherine From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Wednesday, 14 October 2009 2:54 PM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: Re: FV: IDEA legislation Hi Gina, Have been away and couldn't respond. Good question as our legislation is fairly poorly understood around "rights". . IDEA is latest in a number of successive legislations starting back in 1973 when the landmark bill was passed in Washington (State) HB 90, daring to suggest "least restrict environment" was the principle upon which this American State would provide education (and later) other services. In 74 this became national law, PL94-142, landmark legislation for "integration". This, like other American laws, are rights based, meaning any/all citizens can "sue"/challenge the provision if they feel unfairly treated. . DSA is our "latest" legislation and modeled on 94-142 but over a decade later (1986). In its day it was "cutting edge". It too adopted the "integration" concept that was already becoming outdated by the mid-80's but it surely was a huge shift from the "Handicapped Persons Assistance Act" that preceded it! This was the act that stood in place previously and was structured heavily and almost exclusively around segregation and thus the name of the DSA was "A New Direction" (Quite an understatement!) . As others have mentioned, we have had complimentary legislation such as DDA, which is about "not discriminating". (Rather than promoting something, it tries to stop doing something bad). . The major problem (as we see it) is that whilst we believe we have "rights" we don't. We have privileges granted by legislation and allocated by Ministerial discretion. We perceive these as "rights" until we as an individual challenges a decision. We then discover that because NO one has personal, human rights under Westminster Law, we must challenge (ultimately) the right of the Minister who has (as advised by his Dept) used her/his discretion in deciding whatever it is that has been decided. . In reality, the politics of the matter - whatever it may be- may mean that the Minister rarely uses discretionary power to say, exclude a child from education, BUT they will-whenever and whenever they have been advised by Department and feel they can politically wear the heat. . We learned this the hard way. Starting about 1980 we began challenging the child's right to inclusive education. (The first Australian case to go to beyond State challenge arose here in rural WA.) This case saw us bring experts from US and interstate to challenge the science and educational validity of the Minister's decision to exclude a young boy.) Bob and I have testified on inclusion's behalf in a series of "test cases" from Queensland to NSW and over the years and although the ability to politically exclude has lessened (public sentiment shifted gradually in our favour) legislatively we have no more actual, individual human rights. . In fact NO child has a "right" to an education at all. You, as a parent are required to send your child to school but there is no legal requirement for the child to be educated, nor even accepted. And, given the department should exclude a child, the parent is "not off the hook". You are still required to provide an "appropriate education". Sorry. I got carried away with a history lesson on "rights" but maybe good for younger parents to know part of what the early strugglers faced and what is currently only in place because "the times" - and not necessarily backed by any legislative strength. Kindest thoughts. Darrell -----Original Message----- From: familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com [mailto:familyvoices-bounces at inpress.pledgonline.com] On Behalf Of Family Voices Sent: Thursday, 1 October 2009 11:21 AM To: familyvoices at inpress.pledgonline.com Subject: FV: IDEA legislation Hi All I know this is really lazy of me... what legislation in Australia most similar/relevant - if any - to the IDEA legislation in the USA? Thanks guys - sorry to just "use" you for your brains and brilliance and not your looks on this occasion. Cheers Gina __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4508 (20091014) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: